More power faster - without fatalities

The Energy Commission has given marching orders on "More of everything, faster".

What does it mean for health, safety and the environment that we will build more power - faster? This is the question Pia Kristensen Moe asks in the podcast "More power faster" - without deaths. A podcast from Europower Partner

Podcast

Here comes the first of two podcasts from Bergen and StS ISONOR AS. The first guest is Thomas Gundersen. He has extensive experience in training and is now a course leader.

We dive into how the right training and guidance can lead to better results – both in terms of increased efficiency and safety in the workplace.

Pia Kristensen Mo is the project manager for "More power faster" and presenter at the Altitude Conference. At the conference in 2024, Pia was challenged by our project manager for Courses', Silje Strand, to learn rope access! She therefore received a course in access technique level 1, at our course center in Bergen. Thomas Gundersen is the course leader and instructor.

In that connection, Pia might as well have a chat with Thomas, the podcast is subtitled below.

"Hello and welcome to the podcast "more power faster", my name is Pia Kristensen Mo, and in this podcast, we talk about what the Energy Commission's report "more of everything faster" can cause.

What does this mean for the environment and for safety? We discuss opportunities, challenges and how we can find solutions without compromising health and safety.

I am now in Bergen, as I accepted a challenge, I was given at the Altitude Conference in 2024 by StS-ISONOR. I also invited my course leader, Thomas Gundersen. Welcome, or I don't know if I should say welcome or what"

Thomas: "I can say welcome to you then since you are sitting with us."

You Thomas, I'm a little curious, what exactly are you, because you're not just a course leader.

Yes, that's my job today, is the course coordinator at StS-ISONOR. So, I am basically responsible for the academic content of these courses then. I also have a lot of experience from working at heights, back from when I was 17 years old.

Pia: "From the age of 17 yes" I'm now on day number 5 it will be, on the rope access course level 1, that's right?

Thomas: "Yes"

Pia: "And I can say with my hand on my heart that this is crazy fun"

Thomas: "Yes, it's the world's nicest job, especially when the sun is shining"

But you have as you say now, you have a broad experience Thomas, can't you just tell a little bit about your path here, just like you started as a 17-year-old

My way here: boy with some fleas in his blood, we can safely say, started high school, never really found my place there.

Then I had a friend who worked here, as a scaffolding fitter, so he says, but I'll arrange you a summer job and you apply again to school in the fall, and I was also in a job interview, where I was offered an apprenticeship over 4 years.

Instead of taking the regular course in high school, I accepted it, had no idea what rope access was, I was going to become a scaffolding fitter. Was what kind of became the thing then.

Then I was at a job out at the CCB base outside Bergen, where they do maintenance and modifications on drilling rigs for the North Sea, and I also think that it seems very exciting. Then it went on for a while, then someone ran and held courses in the hall that we had warehouse, because the same company that I work for, then I found out that I want to do that.

Pia: "Yes"

But then you worked out in the North Sea?

Have worked for several years offshore, been out at several shipyards, on infrastructure, i.e. on bridges and that type of thing. A little bit of Around in Building and Construction, and yes.

What type of assignment then, what did you work with most with rope access?

Lifting operations, is what I have been doing the most, including mechanical work after I became a safety manager, then I have been around a lot, where I have been responsible for other occupational groups, while they have worked in ropes.

It's a lot of fun, because when we talk now, I'm starting to think like, okay, a safety conductor should never be in a rope

Yes, yes, you can be if the rescue plan is arranged for the others in the team, then it will be fine.

But I also want you to just mention two words about your employer, who challenged me to do this, because what are you doing?

Oh, what we do, we are an ISS supplier, so the primary services we provide are really Scaffolding, Surface and Insulation.

And we have some additional services within overpressure tents for welding, for example, habitat.

We supply rope access. We provide services such as mechanical assignments, we can provide electrical services, a wide range of services in rope access.

And we work with others to deliver services within inspection and that type of thing if it should be relevant.

And not least, we have a course centre - for courses and learning - that's my job.

Yes, because then I wondered is it normal for ISS companies to also have a training centre?

It is becoming more and more common. As far as I know, there have been two of us in Bergen who have been doing it for quite some time.

What is it that motivated you to become an instructor? I mean you could be everywhere.

Could have been everywhere, a bit coinciding between interest in my subject, I also learn a lot from being here.

You get a little nourished by going to a training centre and getting access to all the new equipment, and not least to meet lots of other people who do the same thing as I do.

Professional discussions that I hope develop both those who are on courses with me and myself.

If you must name one thing, a skill you got as an access technique, which you have kind of taken very much into your instructor role. Do you have one thing you just, I've stuck to that

No, not really. I feel a bit that, if you're going to develop yourself, you can't kind of hold on to one thing. Must always be willing to listen to, so maybe yes, maybe it comes from being a security leader - to try to be inclusive, make those around you feel so safe that they dare to air the issues that arise.

I really want to ask you, because what are the most important safety measures when working at heights?

Everyone can sort of talk about this with risk assessments and everything. And that is of course very important.

In a way, it has to have a good plan at the bottom, for what is going to happen, how do we handle the risk, but this risk will never be better than that you have to hold someone accountable for actually implementing the measures that have been set then, if you don't place that responsibility somewhere, then no one has that responsibility, And then we humans are simply a bit lazy, then it doesn't happen.

So, you mean that you can plan, and you can safety analyze and there is no way, but if you don't have the one who is responsible, then it's just to throw it all on a boat?

I think so, now there are probably others who are better at answering the numbers on that, but if you look at our statistics in access technology quite unique really, if you compare us with others who operate and work at heights.

Then I have a hypothesis that the reason for that is that we have a fuse conductor in these layers. You have someone who is always designated as responsible for the safety physically of the workplace. And I think that's the key to have someone who knows that it's me who gets - it's the rice behind the mirror that lies there on one person if something should happen.

Pia: "And now, with my long experience, I see that doing things in the right order is incredibly important when it comes to safe work."

Can you tell me what the most important thing is really to think about when you are going to do such a work setting then

So, the first thing we start with is usually to plan how we are going to solve the work task.

So, we shouldn't just hang out here and look pretty, you have to work at height.

We must look at what are the risks of the ban with this? And we often find that after we have planned for how to solve it.

So, what we start with is, here is what needs to be solved, here we have a plan to solve it, i.e. a method or whatever you want to call it, then we must look at what are the risks with this.

When may it be relevant for us to have to rescue, for example, what are the limitations for us if we solve it in this way in relation to security.

Then it may well be that we find some challenges that make us must change the original plan. Because the risk assessment says that we cannot do this in a safe way.

Which of the biggest safety requirements have changed since you started in the industry?

I don't think the requirements have changed that terribly, I think the culture, at least in the part of the industry that I come from with the Oil industry, I think we have become very much better.

But I still think we have a long way to go to get it perfect, I think that's almost unattainable, but we must try.

Pia: "Then you should actually listen to the podcast that is out now about security culture, because the best security culture you could get, was if you joined a cult!"

Also, I wonder, now you have been here for a while at this training centre, and what are the most common mistakes that are made at the training centre?

The most common errors there are very, very many different types of errors. That's why people are here. To be able to make those mistakes in a controlled environment and not out in a workplace. And learn from it! So that's really the whole point.

So now you've been here, true, and such simple things as forgetting a buddy check before we go up in height and we've connected to the ropes on this course then, for example.

Then it is in a way the last barrier to check that we have gotten into these ropes correctly and that all equipment is in place and correctly mounted and yes. So, it's a typical mistake. Forget to unscrew carabiners and hooks, it's small details.

Pia: "I feel guilty here on all levels"

Thomas: True, we usually joke that people owe me a beer or something like that if they forget to close the breast clamp, but there is a certain seriousness about it and, there are things that can have consequences, i.e. it can cause consequential errors that in turn give greater consequences than it seems at first glance then.

But hey, safety is important, but you also talk a lot about ergonomics, when you must complete a task. Can't you tell me why are you nagging so badly about it?

I nag about it because you work with physical strain very often what happens at height.

Now, I haven't been much in the power industry then, but I imagine that they may have many of the same problems that we have when we work in ropes in the North Sea.

And it's clear that if you're going to do this throughout your entire working life, and it's something I hope I can do at least, I really enjoy what I do, so it would be terribly stupid that a shoulder or an elbow or something like that, would get exhausted before the rest of the body also has to find a new job.

And I think we should focus on that. We will try to make sure that people can keep doing this for as long as possible and it will not be at the expense of their health.

Let's go a little outside the learning pod, outside the course centre here like that, how is it really you assess risk before you start work at height? You have a task to solve, you must plan your task, but how do you start?

Well, first you must have a plan for what will physically happen in the workplace, then you must break it down into smaller subtasks, identify all these different steps or steps in a job.

And when you have done that, you must look at what risks, or dangers, are associated with each of these points.

Also find some measures then to get rid of this risk. That's kind of the essence of it.

And then you plan for rescue right away, don't you?

Yes, if you want to hang from a rope, you almost must, because there is no one else, usually, who comes and picks us up.

But there's a lot of talk about scenarios, isn't it, in such a rescue, and I think, you can sit there and talk about x number of opportunities you can save on, because it can happen, and it can happen, when is what you're saying stop, as a safety leader? Is there no stop?

A stop will rarely come, but you may have to make a different plan, that is, if something has changed compared to the conditions you had.

Say this plan is made in an office, before you come out, then it may well be that, in the scenario where you have calculated a job, or whatever it should be, someone has sat in the office and made a plan, then it is not certain that the map and the terrain completely match, And then the security manager has to say that this does not work, so here we have to make a new plan.

Then he can suggest "this is how we solve it".

Can you plan too much for safety?

No, but no matter how much you plan, it doesn't help if there is no one who is responsible for carrying out that plan.

You have then planned both the rescue, you have planned the job, you kind of have the right team with you, everything is in order. But what about weather conditions?

Yes, it can put an end to the fun, that's how it is. So, we have assessed that this is an acceptable risk, and that is changing.

Say that it suddenly blows up, then it may well be that we must stop work, because of too much wind, for example.

When you then start again, will you include the weather then as a risk factor in new planning, or do you start over?

Basically, I would have the weather conditions in the risk assessment we have in the first place.

We would have said maybe that "ok is it windy, we have an absolute requirement in our standard of 30 knots then, but in some work operations you may need to lower it, i.e. to lower winds, because it will entail a risk.

And then there are things that you must consider in the original risk assessment.

Yes, because here you will get a difference between, for example, access technology out in the North Sea and access technology out there, for example in a high state grid mast

Yes, and what kind of equipment they handle, i.e. I have been involved in replacing wind wall plates in a derrick in the North Sea, it is not a job I would do in 30 knots wind.

No, what is the worst weather condition you have experienced?

Cold and miserable as a scaffolding fitter on Melkøya, the development up there of the Snøhvit project. Midwinter, in snowstorm! And shutdown.

I've heard some stories during these days here, about almost getting waves over you, have you experienced that too?

Have probably gotten wet on my feet at least.

I use the phrase "more power faster without deaths" against the altitude conference, also in this podcast here, and then I wonder what does this mean to you when I say that?

Now, I'm not a very big part of the power industry then, but some of those who work in the power industry come to courses with us.

And I think that if you have an injury frequency, if there is still someone who injures themselves at work, then more work will necessarily mean more injuries. That's really my conclusion. Probably not everyone agrees with me on that.

You, have you ever seen cases where security routines are ignored to save time?

Yes.

And it seems like you don't want to talk about it?

You don't really want to sit here and hang out others.

But how is this handled?

I've been part of work teams where I've said stop.

But you have been part of a work team, but were you then the security manager?

Yes, in the case of work pressure, for example, where you try, because something costs a lot of money, that you have to wait, that you often try to pressure someone to do something that may be on the limit, or over the limit, then I think that it is my job as a security manager to say stop.

Yes, but do you think that breaches of security routines are also happening right now?

Yes, whether it's at altitude or, I think it happens in most industries, you have someone who is good, and someone who may not be as good at following laws and rules and regulations and procedures.

It is often about knowledge. I don't think there is anyone who is in favour of doing this just to do something wrong.

Have you experienced someone refusing to use the right safety equipment?

Not while I've been on a climbing job. I think that we have a pretty good culture there, and the mistakes that are made, I think, are often due to a lack of knowledge.

I don't think it's kind of bad will.

It probably goes into training and therefore it is important that we try to be as accountable and accurate as possible when we explain to people the risks when we have you here on a course.

Have you ever experienced a RAT level 1 saying that I will not join this, here you are violating safety?

Yes, I understand what you're asking. Sure, we encourage that, if it's something you want, you shouldn't just eat everything raw no matter who tells the truth, if it's something that seems weird then you must ask, yes, but why should we do it like that?

But then it seems like a very good culture that you have, because you become a bit of a hierarchy here, right? You have a safety manager who is at the top and has the most experience and then you have kind of level 3 and level 2 and level 1 of access technicians

And I can say a little about that. I haven't worked very much abroad, but I've been on a few trips around both Asia and Africa and worked side by side with people who are not from Norway, and I think that is perhaps one of the strengths we have in this country. That is the flat management structure we have.

Surely sometimes it feels to a leader that sometimes it would be okay to just cut through, but at the same time, I think our strength lies in the fact that those who are further down in this hierarchy that you are talking about, feel that they can speak up and that they are heard.

You don't always agree with them, but at least they are heard, and you assess what they say, and that's important.

Because they can easily come up with new input, and I think that is one of the things that drives us forward in innovation as well.

If we are always going to do what the one who has the most experience says, then it will be done the same way every time, then we will not learn any new ways of doing things.

You have said in the course that certification becomes a safety valve, what do you think?

Simply that someone verifies, i.e. everyone can do documented training and all this here, but that's my opinion, then I can teach a lot of strange things.

The nice thing when we have these certification schemes after 9600 or 9610 for example, is that we as a course company are seen in the cards of what we teach - by others who have expertise in what we do.

But not everyone has certification, do you think it is a weakness in the industry that not everyone has the same certification?

I personally think that when we work at heights then, that risk, that is, for me as a rope access technician, I've been doing this since 2006 or something like that, then I have an impression that the way we do things, and what I in a way talk to others in the industry and things like that, that very little serious things happen.

Of course, that things happen when we work at heights, in the same way as if you had stood on the ground and done these things, that's completely natural.

But I think in a way it's strange that you have a number of other risks that you are exposed to and where the authorities demand that you have to have some kind of certificate or something like that to be allowed to do this, while things that you actually die from, So if you fall down from a great enough height, then the outcome is a given, and then I think it's quite strange that the authorities don't in a way require everyone to have certification.

I think then that everyone will speak the same language, and then you will have exactly what I said about the state network guy who told me that there is only one sect that is a good security culture. And then it will go against it. A common goal, a common certification

True, and not only that, for example what you are doing down in Eastern Norway, this Altitude Conference, so not everything there is equally relevant to me, but still, meeting at these meeting places where we meet each other, I think it is important.

Because we have a lot to learn from each other, even though we are in a way sitting on our own little hill. Some are in a high-voltage mast, while others are offshore in a derrick. So, these communities where we meet, they are important.

I want to go back to what we have also talked about and that is this thing about sharing experiences and you showed me that SOFT has something called CERTASOFT, where you can report both accidents, incidents, weaknesses in equipment and things like that, and then there is a very direct question: Do you think that it is underreported in CERTASOFT?

Yes, I think so. You were in to see for yourself and that there were certain periods where there is terribly little that has been reported.

And what I think is the reason for that is that very often, at least as I know from my industry, you first must report externally, i.e. to the customer, they demand when we are at work that we report in their systems, because they want to have control of their KPIs in relation to HSE.

So if you have to report internally, this will then be sent to the subject coordinator. Then it is the subject manager who is responsible for reporting this further into CERTASOFT.

And I don't think that reporting there is what is at the forefront of the minds of those responsible for the subject on a normal day. It probably isn't.

But if you would have been allowed to before we end this podcast, that you would have been allowed to make a wish - with safe work at height. What would it have been?

No, it is the fact that more people are joining these certification schemes so that we in a way get a larger community where we develop in a way in one direction.

And in a way, it raises the issues and solves the problems in a common way.

I have great faith that the more knowledge people have about what they do, the more equipped they are to solve things in a safe way when they get out to work.

So, this thing about making someone responsible who is out at work.

Do you think the online industry could learn a lot from you?

Yes, and I think we have a lot to learn from them. I think so. I have held some training for people associated with some grid companies and it is clear that I also learn a lot from holding those courses because we really have the same desire for it to be as safe as possible to go to work, and we may have a slightly different approach, because our methods have in a way developed in the environments we work in

So, we can learn from each other, absolutely!

Thank you so much Thomas, then we have two days left that we will be together, and we will have exams

Then we must have some waffles for you since it's your birthday.

Pia:

"Yes, that's true, too! You would think that you are a coconut, you are 53 and go climbing ropes, but this is fun!

Then I just say thank you very much to you who are listening, my name is Pia Kristensen Mo, and I am the project manager for more power faster"